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Steam performance inside vortex tube!

Friday, May 12, 2017   By: P I [1983] 3 Stars
We all are familiar with the vortex tube, also known as the Ranque-Hilsch tube. Its behaviour with compressed air is well tested but I am curious to know whether saturated steam can be used in a vortex tube or not. If yes, then what would be the outcome. I mean what would be the temperature of the hot flow and what would be the temperature of the cold flow. And the most important part is whether the part of condensed steam from the colder flow will be added to the hot flow or not.

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Friday, May 12, 2017   By: Murphy [21] 4 Stars
I think I agree with you on the vortex tube, but not how you talked about it when applying a vortex tube to saturated steam. Others will likely give more science than my simple reasoning. So, saturated steam is the same temperature, but dryer steam will leave the hot outlet and wetter steam will leave the cold outlet. Said another way the high heat content steam leaves the hot outlet and lower content saturated steam leaves the cold outlet. Does this sound right to you? Try not to be to wordy with me for I may not be able to answer.

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Friday, May 12, 2017   By: P I [1983] 3 Stars
What you are saying can be easily understood and its the basic property of vortex tube. What I want to know whether the enthalpy of the condensed steam of the colder has been passed entirely to the hot flow or not.

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Sunday, May 14, 2017   By: Murphy [21] 4 Stars
Okay, the answer to your question is NO it doesn t because with saturated steam in a vortex tube separates the higher moisture steam that also has a lower heat content out the cold oulet, and the driest saturated steam that has the higher heat content out the hot outlet. This means the inlet of saturated steam has same pressure and temperature and 1 measure of heat content that corresponds to an average amount of moisture in the saturated steam coming in the vortex tube..

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Sunday, May 14, 2017   By: P I [1983] 3 Stars
I think you havent understood what I want to mean. As the pressure of both the hot and cold outlet is the same, that mean a part of the steam of the colder outlet has been converted into water. I want to know whether the enthalpy of the condensed steam of the colder flow has been totally be passed to the hotter flow or not.

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Sunday, May 14, 2017   By: cmolanes@itba.edu.ar [50] 4 Stars
Mr. P. I.:

I am not sure about what you are planning, but ... I am convinced that, in absolutely any possible case in which you can separate saturated steam from condensate, or steam from a mixture called wet steam, then the portion separated as saturated steam, be it large or small, will inevitably and exclusively have the enthalpy, or heat value, of saturated steam as you may find on the steam tables, and the condensate will only and exclusively have the heat content of the condensate, that is, the heat value corresponding to a point on the left side curve of the bell, This is independent of the means by which you separate the flows.

If you obtain or separate a wet steam, then its heat content will be that of the mixture, thus depending on the proportion of steam or Titulo as we say in Spanish. In this particular case you cannot say in advance the heat value, you must first calculate, or estimate, or even guess, how much steam you have in the outflow and how much water, prior to calculating the heat value of the bifasic flow. It is evident that calculating for pure saturated steam or pure condensate is much more straightforward and simple than when you have wet steam.

Good luck!

Claudio Molanes

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Monday, May 15, 2017   By: P I [1983] 3 Stars
Dear Prof. Molanes,
Thanks for the clarification. As per you, the LHV of the condensate has been transferred to the hot flow irrespective of the means of separation and thats what I want to know.
Vortex tube principles still havent been properly understood yet what I am trying to do is to understood what will happen if pure saturated steam has been used at the vortex tube. It can be easily understood that a part of the steam of the cold flow will be converted into water. And as per your explanation, the LHV of the condensed water will be transferred to the hot flow considering loss due to friction to be negligible.

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Monday, May 15, 2017   By: Jim Watts [764] 5 Stars
I do not expect saturated steam will work in the tube.
With a gas if it is compressed its temperature rises and if it is expanded its temperature drops.
The tube works because the tube has a zone where pressure increases and a zone where it decreases.
The outlets are from each zone resulting in two flows at different temperatures.

With saturated steam if the pressure increases some steam condenses this increaes its density and causes it to centrifically fly to the outside of the tube where the hot zone is supposed to be, its temperature will be slightly higher at the saturation temp of the higher pressure. The dry steam will be in the so called low pressure zone and would therefore be inclined to reduce in temperature. If this arrangement could be made practical which I doubt, it would produce hot water and cold steam in a ratio to match the enthaly balance.

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Monday, May 15, 2017   By: P I [1983] 3 Stars
This cant be a big problem. With proper designing, it can be eliminated.

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Monday, May 15, 2017   By: Jim Watts [764] 5 Stars
Good Luck.

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Sunday, May 21, 2017   By: c [50] 4 Stars
Mr. P I:

I have but just read the last postings... if you are trying to know what the result of using steam in the vortex-tube will be, I suggest you simply try it, just make the experiment and then evaluate the results. Much engineering progress has followed this procedure in history, and it should still work nowadays. With the outcome of the experiment, you will be able to analyze and deduce how it really works and why.

Claudio Molanes

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Tuesday, May 23, 2017   By: P I [1983] 3 Stars
Dear Prof. Molanes,
I will certainly do that if I have enough resources. It seems from your words that this is still an uncharted territory and there are chances of experiment and deducing the result in this field. Hope some scholar will show some interest in this field soon.

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Friday, May 19, 2017   By: P I [1983] 3 Stars
Actually I have started this discussion with a thought cum question in my mind. So far, only air/gas has been used in vortex tubes and getting 20°C colder stream is very common. But, does that can be achieved with saturated steam? As for example, if we use saturated steam at 100°C temperature and at 1 barA pressure has been used in a vortex. The speed has been created by a high speed blower instead of compressing the saturated steam to get the forced vortex. Now, if the temperature of the colder flow will be at 80°C, then how much steam has been condensed?
For vortex tubes, the density and pressure of both the input and of the output flows remains the same. That means, the flow coming out of the colder section at 80°C temperature and at the same pressure i.e. 1 barA, that will mean that around 54% of steam in the colder stream has lost their LHV. Just imagine such huge amount of enthalpy has been transferred to the hot flow and where its temperature will rise if all the enthalpy lost from the cold flow will be added to the hot flow.
Thats why I want to know the behaviour of saturated steam inside a vortex tube, especially about the enthalpy distribution between the hot and the cold flow. I have searched net but havent found even a paper on this matter and it seems that this subject need research and that may lead to some good heat pump mechanism in future.

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Saturday, July 15, 2017   By: Jim Watts [764] 5 Stars
It turns out that steam has been used in vortex tube to produce refrigeration.

see http://tinyurl.com/ybbflx7u

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